Tuesday, 18 October 2011

Guest Post: Leave our Alain alone

By itwassammymcnallywhatdoneit




As we know well in Northern Ireland, predicting someone’s views on a range of issues doesn't require a crystal ball, just a clue as to their background - their name, the school they attended or their address. Once you have sniffed out those details, you can identify their tribe and you can then have a fair stab at working out what they think.


Of course, tribalism is not just confined to Ulster and tribal loyalties are not always that straightforward. Take Monsieur Alain Rolland for example, born and raised in Ireland but with a French father. For many Welsh rugby fans such continental lineage was proof positive of his preference for the land of his father, Wales's opponents in the rugby world cup semi-final and of course explains his 'outrageous' decision to send off the Welsh captain Sam Warburton.


When England were knocked out of the world cup, by perhaps the bitterest of their many 'old enemies' France, Wales found themselves up against the same opponents and the centre of British media interest in the run up to the semi-final. Unlike poor unloved England, who had exited in disarray in the glare of dreadful publicity, all the media stories about Wales were extremely positive. Rather than tossing dwarves in the local hostelries, we were told the Welsh formed themselves into a Choir and whiled away the hours singing harmonies - no going on the pop and chasing the local talent for them. David Cameron, perhaps reeling from the Fantastic stories circulating about his defence secretary Mr Fox(who by now was rivalling the English rugby team for bad press) declared his Prime Ministerial support for Wales and ran the Welsh flag up the mast in Downing Street.


Not a bad word was muttered against the Welsh, not even from the Irish - still smarting from the hiding we took from our fitter and younger Celtic cousins the previous week. Cymru am byth.


The stage was set.


Only France stood between Wales and a world cup final and with the Millennium stadium, rocking with 65,000 (more than at the game itself), there could only be one winner?


But after 17 minutes of the semi-final the Franco-Irish referee reached into his pocket and took from it a card - colour Red, not colour Yellow(which would have been in contravention of the IRB directive issued only weeks previously). Yet every rugby pundit and Welsh (or English) fan or ex-player who could overcome their indignance to be interviewed or to tweet, insisted that it was a 'dreadful' or 'shocking' or 'awful' or 'outrageous' (or all of the preceding) decision. Of course, part of this indignant outrage was based on ignorance of the rules and part based on sheer disappointment. Rugby pundits, who had previously demanded consistency from officals, were now calling for inconsistency, a Yellow card because it was only the 17th minute, a Yellow card because it was the semi-final of the world cup, a Yellow card because the perpetrator had no track record for foul play, a Yellow card because otherwise the game would be wrecked, a Yellow card because a red would stop Wales getting to the world cup final. Shame on you Alain – deep shame.


Jamie Roberts, the outstanding Welsh centre and Irish and British Lion(who is completing a medical degree in his spare time) was clearly struggling to keep his emotions under control when he was interviewed directly after the game - but pointedly refused to criticise the referee's decision. Such a dignified response was not however in evidence from the Welsh coaches with each of them lining up to condemn Rolland for enforcing a punishment designed to prevent serious spinal injuries in this extremely physical contact sport. (Warren Gatland, Wales's head coach, further added to his repuation for ill-judged remarks, by bizarrely trying to claim credit for not cheating during the match by faking a player injury).


In France of course, there was a somewhat different tribal reaction, with coaches and ex-players joining a chorus of approval and lauding Monsieur Rolland for a fine decision.


Back in Ireland, I suspect we too, have rallied behind ‘our Alain’, the bilingual, Garret Fitzgeraldesque official who oft represents Irish Rugby in major tournaments (long after our team have departed) and we will be ready to remind anyone daring to criticise him that the only person who should be in the dock for the incident in the 17th minute is Wales's outstanding young Captain Mr Warburton i.e. the person who actually made the reckless and dangerous tackle.

561 comments:

1 – 200 of 561   Newer›   Newest»
Dewi Harries said...

All i'll say is whatever thr rules surely a red card requires malice not accident?

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

Dewi,

Arguing that the rules are wrong is fair enough but that is not what has been happening here with the attacks being directed at our Al.

Also if you saw Scrum V (still avialable on BBC i player) Kinsgsley Jones (as coach of Russia) confirmed that he and the other coaches had been told that droppping someone (irrespective of intent) would lead to a red card.

Presumably Gatland and Edwards and Howley had not been paying attention in class when that came up?

Dec said...

Sammy

Former welsh captain, Robert ones, declared the red card the correct decision soon after the event. Stephen Jones's piece in the Sunday Times was particularly instructive: that referees were essentially told Red card first, questions afterwards in the advent of such a tackle. Bottom line - warburton raised an oponents legs then dropped him to the ground - fortunately the French player was abe to tuck his head before contact. The notion that those reactions should be lodged as mitigatory evidence for Warburton, is nonsensical.

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

Dec,

"Former welsh captain, Robert ones, declared the red card the correct decision soon after the event"

Didn't see that. I think those 'supporting' Rolland had to move cautiously to avoid a (verbal)lynching.

It will be interesting to see if Gatland, who promised to apologise if the authorities backed up Rolland (which they now have) keeps to his word.

... and the WRU should offer an apology on behalf of the Coaches and ex-players who have rubbished Rolland's decision and admit he called it right.

p.s. Are you the same Dec from Slugger?

Valleys Girl said...

no problems with you defending Rolland against attack to the last, but its the total lack of empathy and the subtle anti welsh undercurrent expressed in doing so that has really surprised and disappointed many of us.

We aren't going to agree on the Red Card and yes the penalties and conversion were missed, but at least the last few days have been an eye opener for many Welsh rugby fans to see how hated we were before the World Cup and still are among all the other six nations fans, particularly the Irish which is a shame as I was cheering you on when your boys played some great rugby and turned the tournament on its head.

BTW I wish France all the best for Sunday it would be great to have a Northern hemisphere team win the World Cup.

Chekov said...

Valleys Girl, very surprised to hear that. I detected only support for Wales among Ireland fans. The mood in England seemed to be similar.

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

Valleys Girl,

I agree with Chekov, most Irish fans including myself supported Wales afer we were deservedly beaten.

The only source of ill-feeling between Ireland and Wales that I remember is that which Gatland tried to drum up a few years back - which he was forced to apologise for.

That is not not to say that Wales aren't appallingly one-eyed when it comes to referees and probably the best holders of a grudge on the planet in relation to rugby though we clearly have the edge when it comes to more serious historical issues.

Valleys Girl said...

Thanks for the replies,

Great that you were supporting Wales, but I was talking about attitudes to Welsh fans not the team, sorry if that wasn't clear.

If you think Rolland has been hard done by, as I said maybe you should check out the racist vitriol spewed about Welsh fans from our Six Nations and Celtic Brethren defending Rolland’s decision, some of the stuff from Welsh fans has been over the top and two wrongs don’t make a right but you lost the letter of the law moral high ground defending Rolland when that kicked off.

Last point we lost, this is part of Sam Warburton’s rugby story whatever he achieves, but the lack of empathy is striking, if it was Brian O Driscoll who was sent off would the Irish fans response have been so different to us Welsh?

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

Valleys Girl,

"racist vitriol spewed about Welsh fans from our Six Nations and Celtic Brethren defending Rolland’s decision, some of the stuff from Welsh fans has been over the top "

No havent seen or heard that nonsense, sounds more like soccerball fans to me. At Ireland versus Wales internationals there is always a great atmosphere though I think there is some nonsense between Ospreys and Munster (referenced here in a post I did on Slugger)

http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/12/17/when-two-celtic-tribes-go-to-war/

Back to the 'decision' - the bottom line with the referee decision is (regardless of whether it was O'Driscoll or Warburton) is that he should be respected for doing a very difficult job. I can understand in the heat of the moment fans complaining but the rubbishing of Rolland by the Welsh officials undermines referees authority at all levels of the game. The WRU should have told Gatland to apologise - something he promised to do if he was proven wrong - and something he clealry has got wrong.

Anonymous said...

Sammy

Oui!

Seymour Major said...

I was critical of the referee's decision when it happened. I would have been critical whatever the referee's country of origin.

The referee did not break any rules. There is no doubt about it. The referee does have a certain amount of discretion though. The issue should really have been, would a better decision have been made if he yellow-carded Warburton?


It has been said that the evidence of lack of malice is irrelevant? If the IRB have laid down such a rule, they are wrong, for the simple reason that players cannot prevent, by non-intent, the odd chance piece of dangerous play.

I would like to have seen the referee consult the linesmen about the incident to gauge their opinion on malice and to award a red, only if they decided that there was.

pippakin said...

I think Ireland Scotland and Wales supporters turn to the other teams when their one has lost.

Good to see you up and about Sammy.

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

Seymour,

"It has been said that the evidence of lack of malice is irrelevant? If the IRB have laid down such a rule, they are wrong, for the simple reason that players cannot prevent, by non-intent, the odd chance piece of dangerous play. "

Like you at the time, I thought the decision was very harsh but that was before I knew the rule and that the coaches were explicitly told during the competition that a tip tackle was a red card offence regardless of intent.

As I mentioned above to Dewi it is one thing crticising the laws but it is a totally different matter rubbishing Rolland for implementing what was explicitly spelled out to the coaches.

pippakin,

good to hear from you. It think that is largley true but as we all know, many of us dont have the same generosity of spirit in relation to our other larger near neighbour.

How are things over in Sluggerland?

Valleys Girl,

I didnt address your point re. empathy. My initial reaction when Warburton was sent of was one of inceredulity and disappointment for him as he comes across extremely well and is not a dirty player and also disappointment that Wales, who were by far the better team were not going to make it to the final.

Now, as I mentioned above, that I know the rule and directive I think Warburton has to accept responsbility for his actions and Gatland needs to explain to us why he didnt pay attention when he was being told these tackles would result in a red card.

pippakin said...

Sammy

Slugger appears to be doing alright. I was there earlier today, saw the link to here and couldn't resist!

Mark said...

Only Warburton knows whether or not there was any malice in the tackle . It may have been a rush of blood or he may have wanted to lay down a marker , the game was close and he was the captain . Regardless it was a red card . The speed with which Alain Rolland dismissed him suggests he was in no doubt about the sending off .

Gatland looking for credit for not cheating is on a par with a horse trainer looking for credit for not drugging one of his horses .

Rolland played scrum half for Ireland and would know more than most referees , the danger of a tackle like that .

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

Mark,

"Rolland played scrum half for Ireland and would know more than most referees , the danger of a tackle like that."

Agreed he can hardly be accused of not knowing the game.

ps There is a Mark on Slugger - is it yerself that's in it?

Mark said...

Sammy ,

" Agreed he can hardly be accused of not know the game " .

Absolutely , I was a year below Alain in school and he was the star scrum half all the way up to the Senior cup team . As I mentioned , he has a few caps for Ireland and when he realised he might not be first choice , he choose a career as a referee . His desire to stay in the game and the passion he has shown makes a mockery of the abuse he has had to endure in the last forthnight .

BTW , I am the same Mark from the other place . You wouldn't happen to be the same ItwasSammyMcNally by any chance ? Like Pippakin , I saw Seymour's link and hey presto ..

PS .... Did you ever manage to finish the West Wing ?

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

France deserved to win that game.

Wales must be really kicking themselves as the All Blacks looked very beatable - it looked like All Blacks nerves versus French adrenalin - Wales could have really rattled them as well.

Thought the All Blacks looked like Ireland for swathes of that game - static ball in the middle of the field which then led to a turnover - but French back row(probably the best in the tournament) were outstanding. It will be some 6N.

Mark,

Yes, tis meself, oxtered-oot of Slugger for bad behaviour. It was good to see 'our Alain' running the line in the final.

Re. West Wing, see my comment on Chekov's post on Spads below.

I am now near the end of season 5 and I have abandoned by annoyance with it and am really enjoying it -though only view it in bursts.

Mark said...

Sammy ,

I'm on an enforced sabatical myself from SOT ....

I too thought France were unlucky to lose . Their lineout was outstanding with Harinordoquy the man of the match .

New Zealand without Carter are a totally different side . The nerves went with Weepu the main culprit . Having said that , France rode their luck throughout the tournament and as the saying goes ..... luck evens itself out .

AS you mentioned , the 6 Nations will be very interesting next year with three teams fancying their chances of Grand Slam glory .

Kidney has some big calls to make re selection .....

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

Mark,

"Kidney has some big calls to make re selection "

Although I have been a big fan of D'arcy and allowing for the great game he had against Australia, surely now Kidney will give Trimble or Bowe a run in the centre. Would like to see DOC being put out to pasture as well - even if it means taking a step backward in order to take a couple forward.

We are away to France and England this year so perhaps this it is a good opportunity to try a bit of experimenting when expecatations wont be too high. The home game against Wales will be interesting and we will need to show initative in that game of we will lose our third game in a row to them.

I would certainly settle for a triple crown with the inevitable loss in Paris.

Dewi Harries said...

"I would certainly settle for a triple crown with the inevitable loss in Paris"

Ho Ho Ho!!!

Dewi Harries said...

"I would certainly settle for a triple crown with the inevitable loss in Paris."

Ho, Ho, Ho!!!

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

Dewi,

I'll wager you, our by now tradional, £10 wager, that our green-fellahs will finish ahead of your red-fellahs.

(Loser pays to charity of their choice).

Mark said...

Sammy ,

We would lose our third game in a row to them ..

Let's just hope Stephen " I'm not goin near that pocket " Jones is in the No. 10 shirt .

Unfortunately , gone are the days when playing Wales was as easy as playing England . It will be interesting to see how Wales handle the favorites tag .

On selection , Kidney needs to make his mind up about who occupies the outhalf slot . Sexton's confidence has whithered away in the last six months and he needs to know if he has Kidneys backing .

I agree about D'arcy going ... and maybe your man beside him ?? O Driscoll plays more like a wing forward nowadays and D'arcy just seems so small compared to other midfielders . O Callaghan I'm not so sure , O Connell plays much better with DOC beside him . I take your point though , the next WC is what it's all about and forward thinking is needed .

On a lighter note ,where does English rugby go from here ?

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

Mark,

re. changing the team, to be honest I'm personally not that concerned about world cups - winning a few more grand slams would do me. Seeing the same 'old' faces year after year is depressing - fair enough with BOD and POC (as they are exceptions) but move BOD to inside centre and give someone else a chance outside him. I agree about POC an DOC together to some extent but we really need to freshen things up.

In relation to the great white rhinos(England) they have a number of really good young players particulalry at Northampton and will be a real force at next world cup and Johnson was too conservative this time out.

Munster play Northampton in the Heineken cup in a few weeks and it will be really interesting (and a bit worrying) to see if Munster can win their home game against them. Scrum could be a major problem for Munster.

Mark said...

Sammy ,

I can understand why you'd prefer a few slams as back in the day , the triple crowm and grand slam were the only glory a rugby fan could dream about ( lion's tours not withstanding but we won't go there ) . The fact that there was a 9/10 month gap between seasons enhanced the thrill . I can still see Ginger McLoughlin's arse been carried over the line at twickers .

And as a renouned sledger and heckler growing up in my own back garden , local bragging rights are very important to any true supporter and it makes life in the pub a whole lot easier and enjoyable .

However the World Cup has to be the holy grail ( in most sports ). We want to be the world best . And the fact that we have beaten all our neighbours in the last couple of years makes our exit all the harder to take . I don't think we'll ever have a better chan e but it wasn't to be .

RE selection - I would like to see some changes even if it's just means to freshen things up . I don't know what Kidney will do about Wallace coming back and I don't think a rotation policy would work at scrum half . We;ll have to wait and see .

On the European Club scene , I bow to your obvious superior knowledge on the European game however I must say that Leinster's recent heoric displays have woken the rugby beast in me . In school we got first dips on tickets in school boy end ( remember that )so we saw nearly all the triple crown home games in the 80's .

On England , I must be one of the only people in this country whose a fan of Martin Johnson and I hope he doesn't ruin his legacy with another tilt at the next WC . The modern Media ( post 2003 ) is England's greatest hurdle in any major tournament and will continue to be so .....

Anyway Sammy , still in mourning after the Man United result however I seem to recall you weren't the biggest fan of soccerball ( I think you called it )so won't bore you with the emotional distress I'm feeling at the moment ....

BTW - Do you do any more moonlighting ?

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

Mark,

(I seem to have lost my last 2 attempts at a reply).

Re. World Cup: I like to try and keep expectations vaguely in line with reality - though we did for the first time win our pool and beat a Tri Nations team in the Tri Nations back yard.

Re. 6Ns it is a spiffing tournament - though Heineken Cup now hard on its heels - dreadful draw for Ulster this year with Munster and Leinster probably going through.

re. Soccerball. NornIron commentator Alan Green (bbc R5) said anybody who thinks the league is over after the 6-1 knows nothing about football - but cant agree with that. (Where is Gibson these days?)

re. Moonlighting - internet jibber-jabbering far to time consuming for that.

Mark said...

Sammy ,

Sorry , I meant moonlighting being the Internet jibber jabbering . I'm not trying to give you a big head but quite a few posters over on SOT mentioned your absence and what a shame it was .....

RE Wc , I see I came in joint second in the SOT world cup competition . I remember after filling out my answers pre WC , the poster immediately after me who had already posted came back on the thread and said " Hmmm ...as if to imply i had for some reason copied my fellow posters answers as I was the last poster who had entered and most of the previous answers were the same .ie All Blacks , Dan carter etc ... but anyway I must have given a few correct answers to the crowned Joint Second . I'd say Mick was delighted with the mention I got lol .

Re Views on 6N , If you remember the whole Grandstand programme was devoted to it with Bill on ther touchline and again the fact that it was only four games a year . The HC will be brilliant this year and I wounder will we see an O ' Gara swansong season . Munster motivation is there strongest weapon . But I had a look at Northhampton and they seem formidible .

Re Alan Green Comments - now there's a man who knows his football . I hope he's right . United always have a blipp . United stil play City have yet to play Liverpool / Arsenal / Chelsea but we'll see . If United's odd drop in the next month or so , it's worth a punt as City haven't been there yet and the nerves will go ... IMHO .

Darren Gibson .... ? He had a chance to move in the summer and he turned the offer down ( Sunderland i think , mid table team , good bread etc and some say Ferguson wasn't too please when he didn't go ( I think ) so he hasn't really featured this season .

On the International scene - He'll be lucky to make the squad for the EUROS 2012 ( thank good ) . Fitz is your man for the Darren Gibson gossip .

Till the next time Sammy .....

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

Mark,

re. United v City. The latter seem to me to have clearly the better players and although a range of cliches are available to select from for any (sporting) situation my chestnuts of choice for this scenario are - class will tell and cream will rise to to the top.

I'll wager you a tenner that City will finish above United and my prediction is City/Chelsea/United 1/2/3.

ps When you go back into Slugger can you tell Dewi that a £10 wager awaits his acceptance (see above).

Dewi Harries said...

OK - tenner it is....

Mark said...

Sammy ,

I'll take that bet . United to finish ahead of City .

With regard to cream always rising , David Silva is best best player in England at the moment . Last year it was Rooney . United have won the titles both domestic and Eoropean with this squad .City will never have experienced the Champion League and Mancini has made it clear he wasnts to win it this year . Injuries / Suspensions - ( Tevez and Ballatantrum )so we'll see . Don't forgot Nani , Hernandez , Rooney .....ths list is endless but I admire your optimism , so we shall see .

I see Dewi has responded to your proposal !

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

When it comes to football analysis it is difficult to improve on this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfQarImZ97Y

ItwasSammyMcNally said...

Warburton now admits our Alain was right.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2011/1103/1224307029899.html

As BBC reports that "hate figure" not in charge of any Wales games and the Rugby authorities let themsleves down.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15542912.stm

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